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View Full Version : KNOCK - - knock - knock knock knock - knock knock



arap183
22-03-12, 06:41 AM
Thats the noise my Z1R engine makes at idle when its warming up. Its sounds like a piston is hitting the head every now and then. I have checked the alternator rotor and its Ok. Its very hard to tell where the noise is comeing from. If I put my ear against the engine it sounds like metal on metal somewhere in there. Its not clutch rattle and I dont think it is cam chain noise, its too solid and precise.
It also has what I consider exsesive vibration up through the revs, and it seems to be getting worse.
Otherwise the engine runs perfectly, it will idle at 300 revs while warming up without choke. The carbies have been balanced , it has good throttle response and doesnt backfire or miss.
The other day I had it on the centre stand trying to identify the knocking noise cause, and noticed the front wheel rocking back and forth a few millimetres in time with the knock, like it had Harley disease.

I know that I might have to do some serious engine surgery here but I hopeing some one can point me in the right direction, like "I know what that is , I had the exact same problem, it's the ???."

Any Ideas?
Cheers.. A

Gosling1
22-03-12, 01:54 PM
even though you have checked the rotor - that is exactly what the problem sounds like to me. The vibration in the motor would confirm that something is out of balance......

If it was a loose valve, its more like a tic-tic-tic noise coming from the top end. Knocks - are usually bottom end. I would have the motor out and split the cases (you can do this without taking the top-end apart) and just having a good poke around to see what is loose down there.

:cool:

Arrne08
22-03-12, 02:37 PM
Using a screwdriver as a stethoscope can help localise a noise very precisely but it is not a s easy as you might think.

COE1948
22-03-12, 03:39 PM
Another thing to have a look at with the rotor ,they can apear to be tight but you may have sheared the woodruff key that locates the rotor dont ask me how i know about this!!

Regards Dale

GarnZ1
23-03-12, 04:13 AM
Dale & Gos may be onto something regarding the alternator rotor. I recall reading of a noise caused by a pin sheared in the back of the rotor, making a noise that took ages to find. I have seen these pins sheared, I think it is caused by the three large Allan screws loosening.
Also, on a different tack, I recall a mate putting in high compression pistons with the cutaway for the inlet valve on the exhaust side. We discovered it before installing the head.
RegardZ.

arap183
23-03-12, 05:48 AM
Thanks fellars, I'll check the alternator again and then the clutch side. Ive checked the noise with stehtascope, feek it's loud. Just when it seems like I'm tracking it down it goes away and I have to wait hours for the motor to cool down.

Cheers

planezrx
23-03-12, 11:37 PM
I once changed the oil in my wifes bike and it started to develop a knock. The knock disappeared as the engine warmed up and wouldn't re-appear unless the bike was cold. Turned out I had changed to too high a viscosity in the oil and it was oil pump bypass valve going off in the engine.
Dropped to a lower viscosity oil - problem disappeared. How clean is your oil? Could the filter be clogged?
Now I'm not saying that's what's wrong with yours, but it would be a cheap check to make before splitting the cases.

Cheers,
Pete

arap183
03-04-12, 12:43 PM
Thanks for the input fellars. I thought you were on the money Planezrx. I changed the oil and filter expecting the problem to be gone but to no avail. Here is a video with the knocking noise on it also I've tried to catch the front wheel jogging back and forth but its hard to see, if you watch the wheel near the brake caliper carefuly you can see it and then the knocking stops. I still like the oil bypass valve theory but you would think it would be ther from start up. Any have a listen and see what you think, any one else have the same noise?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HXyMohtm1bw&feature=player_detailpage

Here is a better video of the front wheel jogging, you can hear the knocking sound start in the background.
Cheers..A


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rrd3R7VUuS0&feature=player_detailpage

ben james
03-04-12, 08:27 PM
hi mr arap 183,
my advice would be, turn that engine off now & don't start it again with a noise like that.
those engines are so easy to pull apart & are such a simple engine that it wouldn't cost much to fix , but if you keep running it you could cause some serious internal carnage.
bit hard to hear what that noise could be through computer speakers, but it doesn't sound good.
wonder what your oil pressure is?
then pull rocker cover & check cam chain, valve clearances & then remove your cam chain tensioner & have a look at it.
then pull rotor off & check that.
pull your clutch plates out & check basket is installed ok
is your front sprocket tight?
it;s pretty easy stuff.
if you don't feel comfortable doing that, pm me & i can suggest someone to strip,diagnose & reassemble engine for you.
it looks like a nice bike so i think you should bite the bullet & do it right.
regards ben

GarnZ1
03-04-12, 09:21 PM
Arap, I'm impressed with that stethoscope, you can really hear the noise clearly, I would like to hear the clutch basket side. I would be looking for end-float in crankshaft or cam shaft and have someone lean the bike 10-15 degrees right, then the same left (concentrating firstly on the cam-cover right then left equidistant with the transponder head.) I detected a more metallic sound around the cam-cover. Which to me is a good sign! You might want to note how long the oil takes to get up to the cam cover and the time it takes for the noise to go away.

Slow time I would like some details how you made/ where purchased that stethoscope.
RegardZ

ben james
03-04-12, 09:31 PM
Ben, I'm impressed with that stethoscope, you can really hear the noise clearly, I would like to hear the clutch a basket side. I would be looking for end-float in crankshaft or cam shaft and have someone lean the bike 10-15 degrees right, then the same left.

Slow time I would like some details how you made/ where purchased that stethoscope.
RegardZ
keep those good tips coming guys, i like that one about leaning bike to each side.
thats noise sounds like a real mettalic tap doesn't it,
really curious now, will be following with interest.

900FOUR
04-04-12, 02:02 AM
Drop your sump:top:, probably find bakerlite material from cam chain slipper in the bottom.

arap183
04-04-12, 12:02 PM
Thanks Fellars, I'm not going to let this beat me. I've just wached the wheel video and realised you can't see much in the forum post (you blokes must think I'm seeing things) if you click on the video a second time once it starts and then go full screen it's as plain as day.

fnb9858
04-04-12, 04:19 PM
Hi…..I once had the same noise on a yam 650 twin. One of the links in the timing chain had seized up. When the seized link traveled down to the crankshaft sprocket the chain was forced to bend to go around the sprocket but when it came off the sprocket heading to the cam tensioner it would stick momentarily and the chain would slap the tensioner causing that sound. I found it by taking off the cam cover and turn the engine by hand slowly it would stick and I could find out which link it was. Also if you take the cover of the tensioner and put your finger on it you will feel the impact of the chain on it................ Hope this helps.

arap183
18-04-12, 08:58 AM
Well I've checked every thing that has been suggested and can't find anything that would be the cause of the noise and the vibration. so it's come to this.

Half out
http://i1109.photobucket.com/albums/h425/arap183/002.jpg

Out and in the engine spiny thing.
http://i1109.photobucket.com/albums/h425/arap183/006.jpg

The adventure, mystery tour begins.

Gosling1
18-04-12, 05:27 PM
good luck on the search mate - keep us posted :top:

Doctor Shifty
18-04-12, 06:58 PM
Ouch, heart surgery. That hurts. I hope you find something definite and fixable in there. That bike looks too nice to not run happy.

COE1948
18-04-12, 08:47 PM
Arap 183 was your Z1R that won a trophy at the anniversary rally

Regards Dale

arap183
18-04-12, 09:43 PM
Thanks Fellars, Ill try and keep up dates coming.

Hey Dale, yep thats it. Best few days I've had away for a while.
Once again thanks for all your help with our bikes (S.A Boys) it was a great event.
Cheers A..

arap183
19-04-12, 09:11 PM
Started on the crank case split tonight, got the timing gear and the alternator rotor off.
All looks ok.
No woodruff key on the alternator shaft, just an oil gallery to keep the starter clutch bearing happy.

http://i1109.photobucket.com/albums/h425/arap183/altshaft.jpg

COE1948
20-04-12, 02:13 PM
Arap that problem that you have in my opinion have been caused by the alternator rotor and the lack of a woodruff key i would not split the cases unless you are doing an engine rebuild fe4el free to give me a call on 0419325750

Regards Dale

arap183
20-04-12, 04:32 PM
Sorry all, I haven't made my self clear in my last post. My bike is not meant to have a woodruff key, there is no key or key way in the shaft or the rotor. I was referring back to posts that have been lost.

Cheers A..

900FOUR
20-04-12, 06:26 PM
All looks ok.

http://i1109.photobucket.com/albums/h425/arap183/altshaft.jpg[/QUOTE]


Arap, where taper ends and meets crank, that appears to be grind mark where rotor has been turning/loose??? but could be normal wear mark as hard to tell.

Was rotor super tight?

Was the bolt super tight?

It makes sense that the noise stopped when warmed up, as in rotor tightened up. The rotor only has to be slightly loose or inner metal nut flogged out a wee bit to make noises.

Before you split cases.

900FOUR
20-04-12, 06:30 PM
The woodruff key was dropped in 1978 models, Z1000A2 and Z1R D1 and on don't have a key and went to a 10mm bolt, also torque setting was way higher.

arap183
20-04-12, 09:16 PM
It was very tight, I had a little trouble holding the rotor to undo the retaining bolt but that was the easy one. I was thinking about a extension bar when I was useing the puller bolt to get the rotor off the taper, a bit more grunt, a fart and off it came with a loud CRACK. It definitely wasn't loose.

900FOUR
20-04-12, 09:57 PM
Split the cases my friend, split the cases.

I did my Z1B recently, totally enjoyable job.....





NOT.

GarnZ1
21-04-12, 08:04 AM
Anything found in the sump to date?
RegardZ

COE1948
21-04-12, 10:00 AM
It might be prudent to check the end of the crank with a dial indicator ,then check it a gain with the rotor fitted before you split the cases

Regards Dale

arap183
21-04-12, 05:03 PM
There was a few bits of black flakey stuff in the sump and a lot of dog hair on the oil pump screen!!!
I live with two very hairy, Curly Coated Retreivers so this time the engine is in a large plastic bag when its internals are exposed.
I should have taken the alternator rotor off and run the engine a few times when it was in the bike, to see if the noise was there without a alternator rotor.
I'll check the end of the crank for run out before I go any further.

Harvey1327
24-04-12, 06:08 PM
Have you checked the 3 bolts inside the alternator. I had 1 loose one and another broken one, but the noise sounded a bit pingy under load.

arap183
26-04-12, 08:48 AM
Thanks Harvey, I checked the bolts, they are OK.
Here is a video of the alternator shaft runout, about 0.065mm.
The indicator is about 35 mm from the centre of the bearing, the centre of the crank is about 200 mm from the bearing. Does it follow that at the centre of the crank the run out is 0.371mm ? Which is 0.331mm out of spec.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=nPFSVExXLLg

arap183
29-04-12, 09:45 AM
Any thoughts? Am I on the right track?

Gosling1
29-04-12, 09:55 PM
you are only measuring the run-out at the alternator end mate - the only way to check the run-out for all the main bearing journals is to measure them individually - i.e. with the crank out and supported on V-blocks.

That run-out at the alternator end of only 0.065mm is pretty good. I think you will find the source of the knocking is something other than the crank - unless it has been subjected to massive abuse (revs & HP) or damaged (prang where it has landed on the end of the crank and ground away covers etc) - you can't kill these cranks with an axe. It may be that a rod bearing is starting to collapse ? This one is pretty hard to diagnose without actually hearing it, most problems are really similiar and have the same solution - but odd knocking noises often take a bit to find. Check all the things that move - could even be something like the top roller rubber mounts have or are starting to disintegrate ? Cam-train parts are the noisiest parts of these motors - if the alternator has checked out OK, then I would be going over all the cam-train parts with a microscope.

:cool:

GarnZ1
03-05-12, 07:12 AM
Change of tach! Have a look at this.... From Z1Owners Club GB site, headed Engine rattle {sorted}
"Sounds like a bag of bolts, after overhaul"

It was cam chain tensioner.
the bolt that locks the sprung arm into place was almost stripped. So the rod was moving. helicoiled thread and now sorted.



RegardZ


_________________

arap183
03-05-12, 08:58 PM
Its not the noise that worries me as much as the vibration, i think they are both from the same cause.
Ive split the crank case and haven't found anything obvious yet, although the cam chain system does appear worn I don't think it's the cause. Here is some videos of the crankshaft run out.
The bearings are rock solid and don't move the dial indicator at all.
The counter weights are out of round, number one the worst at about 0.13mm.
Is this enough to cause vibration and how did it get like this?
Can the crank shaft twist a tiny bit either side of the big end, they are only pressed together, and not show up as a bend at the bearings. Its a bit hard to imagine.
All the other bearing tolerences that I have measured are within spec.

Number one end bearing run out measurement.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=Wo7AbPIk2Mo


Center bearing run out

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=twhrzNknkKg

Number one counter weight run out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=hY6f9cqq_XU

GarnZ1
04-05-12, 06:40 AM
Arap, have you checked that you can pass a ground steel bar ( same Dia. as the small-end) thru all the conrods? This will tell if the crank has moved. It is why they often weld the crank!
RegardZ.
PS. Got the lapel mic... just got to get a device for amplifying and a speaker.

fnb9858
06-05-12, 09:27 PM
Hi….Here is some info and measurements from a KZ1000[81-83]model.
It should be the same but if not at least you know what to look for.
Hope this helps…………...Crankshaft and connecting rods section.

arap183
07-05-12, 07:32 AM
Ive got the crank out and on vblocks. Its not laser straight but its within spec, about 0.018mm at its worst. I'll try and source the correct size bar for the small ends today. There is a bit of play in the bearings when they are clean, not shore how much there is supposed to be. The manual doesn't really say. The cam chain and the guides are past their use by dates so the crank had to come out anyway. I'm starting to think all the problems are related to the timing chain system. And of course I can't find the brand new cam chain that Ive been carting around the country for the last 30 years .
Thanks for the info fbn, the more the better.

Gosling1
07-05-12, 09:34 PM
I really doubt that the source of the noise & vibration you had, comes from the crank. It would have shown up in the run-out tests. There should be almost no play in the main bearings - you will get a tiny bit of lateral 'play' but its really only the minimal clearance needed for the bearings to run free. If you check the big-end bearings, there should be nil up-and-down play when you hold the little end of the rod and try to move it up and down. There will always be a minimal amount of lateral movement of the little-end of the rod though. You can measure the sideways clearance with feeler guages at the big-end. It is 2'5ths of 5/8ths of SFA.

Most noise in these motors is generated by the cam-train - so if you replace all the major bits, that should sort out the noise. When the motor gets reinstalled - make sure all the mounts are done up to spec. Loose mounts can cause all sorts of vibration issues.....and keep up the good work, digging right down into the motor looking for issues is excellent therapy !! :top:

:cool:

arap183
08-05-12, 07:15 AM
I think you're right Gos. I've ordered the complete timing train except the top guide sprocket.

The first quote for a cam chain they gave me was $370.00 :shock: After a bit of coughing and spluttering I explained to the bloke that I didn't care if it had Kawasaki on the box or not and that I'd seen the correct OEM endless chain for $60.00 on the net in Aus. He rang me back later and said he had found one on the shelf, $60.00. It all should arrive today and I can put the bottom end back together.
I'm a bit in two minds whether to do any thing else, the rings are just within spec and the valve guides are probably about the same. But the wallet is getting a bit thin.
The therapy continues..

Ktm181
08-05-12, 10:30 AM
Hello mate, how is your hunt going? I had a less "tappy" more "knocky" sound in mine, it turned out to be "galling" in the little end on rod number 4, only slight but got worse as the miles clicked by, pulling it down showed he pin in number 4 was tighter to push through the rod, so, put me GLASSES on and on closer inspection you could see where pin was picking up on the top side of the little end either side of the oil hole. The fix was to buy a "ball hone" for a 12 gauge shotgun and hone it and the other 3, back together and is PERFECT!

On another front, was running Joe Gibbs Racing 10w/40 XP 7 oil and burning around 150ml on 400k ride, swapped to Penrith HPR Gas 10 (10w/50) and oil usage has halved and motor is even quieter but gear changing seems a little stiffer, all i guess due to either the oil thickness once warmed OR the lower level of zinc in it (JGR 1700ppm zinc & the Penrite is only 1220ppm).

Kt

Gosling1
08-05-12, 09:50 PM
...... I've ordered the complete timing train except the top guide sprocket......

sounds good - is the top guide sprocket new ? If it is still in good nick, I reckon you should still replace all the damper rubbers - these are pretty cheap.



... The fix was to buy a "ball hone" for a 12 gauge shotgun and hone it and the other 3, back together and is PERFECT! .....

I like the sound of that ! thanks for the tip :top:

arap183
09-05-12, 06:44 AM
The top guide assembly is OK, a new one is $300.00+. I picked up all the other parts including the rubbers for the top guide assembly (the old ones were loose and as hard as steel). The cam chain was the wrong one and we can't find the correct one at a reasonable price.
It is a D.I.D. 219T-122 endless chain. Does any one know where I can a new get one? Plenty of places have similar that they say is the same, which I'm a bit wary of because they are also usually selling plain brake levers which they say will fit a Z1R.

GarnZ1
09-05-12, 09:35 AM
I must admit I wait every day to hear how this "vibration problem" is progressing.
I do worry about that run-out of the tapered section of the crank-shaft. Seeing your model doesn't have the key-way, have you tried the rotating rotor part that fits onto this section, to see if you can move it to different positions to determine if the run-out is exaggerated, via your dial gauge?
Also, have you tried bluing the taper to see if it is bearing correctly on the taper when tightened. To cause the amount of movement you are getting at the front wheel it has to be an "out of balance" problem, which has to be a rotating mass, somewhere!.
RegardZ.

Ktm181
09-05-12, 02:53 PM
with regards to the flywheel rotor, when refitting it i always, on any engine with this type rotor, LAP IT ON WITH VALVE GRINDING PASTE then refit as normal after cleaning with white spirits or similar. NEVER had a loose or noisey one since...it was, comming loose and knocking etc, a common problem in the 70s on my motocrossers (Huskies and Suzukis)

Kt

Gosling1
09-05-12, 09:31 PM
The top guide assembly is OK, a new one is $300.00+. I picked up all the other parts including the rubbers for the top guide assembly (the old ones were loose and as hard as steel). The cam chain was the wrong one and we can't find the correct one at a reasonable price.
It is a D.I.D. 219T-122 endless chain. Does any one know where I can a new get one? Plenty of places have similar that they say is the same, which I'm a bit wary of because they are also usually selling plain brake levers which they say will fit a Z1R.

This is the type of cam-chain I use in my Z motors. This is also sold as go-cart final drive chain !

US Ebay Motors cam-chain Mk11 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/KAWASAKI-900-1000-KZ1000-MK2-MKII-CAM-CHAIN-TIMING-124-PIN-LINK-DRAGBIKE-/251056064150?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&hash=item3a741b8696&vxp=mtr) or this one cam chain Z900 - Z1000 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/KAWASAKI-900-1000-Z1-KZ900-KZ1000-Z1r-LTD-CAM-CHAIN-TIMING-122-PIN-LINK-DRAGBIKE-/230787941903?hash=item35bc08860f&item=230787941903&pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&vxp=mtr) :thumb:

You can get really good-quality Liska top-roller guide assemblies from Debben Performance for about $170 plus postage. Heaps better than OEM and way cheaper. Check out the Debben Z1000 stuff here (http://www.debben.co.uk/acatalog/z1000.html).

:cool:

Ktm181
10-05-12, 11:26 AM
You can get really good-quality Liska top-roller guide assemblies from Debben Performance for about $170 plus postage. Heaps better than OEM and way cheaper. Check out the Debben Z1000 stuff B
:cool:[/QUOTE]

Gos, what about one from Z1E in the U.S. $91 plus freight?????

Kt

Gosling1
10-05-12, 12:46 PM
good spotting - well that is nearly 1/2 the price of one on the Debben site :top:

arap183
13-05-12, 07:22 AM
Thanks Fellars, Ive got a new camchain coming down from Bundarburg QLD. Eighty five dollars including postage, hope it arrives tomorrow. I try to spend my money in Aus if the price difference isnt too great.
That Debben website has lots of nice custom bits.

gpz750turbo
13-05-12, 10:07 AM
Thanks Fellars, Ive got a new camchain coming down from Bundarburg QLD..

From whom in Bundaberg are you receiving this chain arap???
Not that its any of my bees wax really....:hmmmm:

arap183
13-05-12, 06:01 PM
I'm hopeing I've found the source of the noise!

http://i1109.photobucket.com/albums/h425/arap183/002-1.jpg

This is where the camchain has been hiting the head on the inlet side.

http://i1109.photobucket.com/albums/h425/arap183/001.jpg

If this is the cause of the knocking noise and the slack and worn out guides is the cause of the vibration I'll be a very happy man.

Re the chain comeing from Bunderburg, if it turns up and its the right one I'll let you know and if I've been riped off you'll definitly hear about it.

Cheers

Doctor Shifty
13-05-12, 08:06 PM
If the chain has been flopping that much the top of the tensioner lining must be in very poor condition, and perhaps the top section bent over. Hope you found the reason at last.

GarnZ1
13-05-12, 08:08 PM
Great stuff Arap, How was the other (opposite) side. The side with the spring tensioner?
RegardZ.

arap183
16-05-12, 09:42 AM
Here are two of the cam chain guides, new at the top, old below. The screw that holds the leaf guide in was loose, I don't know how much clearance from the guide sprocket above it there is, I didnt check when I took it out. I may have been hitting it, as it's suprising that it would be loose and stay put. I'll check when I put it back in.

Cam Guides
http://i1109.photobucket.com/albums/h425/arap183/CamGuides.jpg

My camchain hasn't arrived yet, Grrr fing auspost. So in the mean time I decided to do the valve seals and the mark 1 spring compressor / retainer remover worked a treat.

Mark 1
http://i1109.photobucket.com/albums/h425/arap183/Valveclamp.jpg

Cheers..

Gosling1
16-05-12, 07:43 PM
that amount of wear on the that guide is not unusual - and I have seen a few cam covers with the same wear pattern up on the inside edge. Stuff like this will certainly add to the overall noise that a motor produces and with loose fittings - all this needs to be fixed for sure......

but is it the source of the knocking & vibration ? my gut feeling is no. Garnet identified something very relevant with the amount of front-wheel oscillation that you could see in the video. This has to be the result of some type of spinning mass which is out of balance in some way....

weird things can happen with these motors - I have seen that front guide snap off completely and end up in the sump - but the bike was still being ridden everyday with almost no change to noise out of the motor or response! The Z1A I picked up a few years ago had the #1 exhaust valve guide come loose in the head - yep, it was riding up and down with the valve......but old mate still rode the bike around and told the mechanic - "well its making a bit more noise than usual, but still seems to be running OK..." ....

they truly are indestructable

:cool:

fnb9858
16-05-12, 09:03 PM
But is it the source of the vibration?........................ I like Gosling1 am not sure but
stranger things have happened before and will continue to baffle and amuse us
One explanation might be that the cam chain is so stretched that it would retard your valve timing
on all cylinders but the ignition timing from the pickup coils on the
crankshaft would match the piston timing. That out of phase condition
could be responsible for a slight general vibration of the engine but when it goes
thru the frame and magnified by the forks causes the front wheel to shake.
When you get the new chain measure the length with the old chain and let us know.

arap183
17-05-12, 07:28 AM
Recently on the net I found a mob selling camchains (fckd if I can find it again) and they were saying how thiers was better than genuine because it would not strech, because when the camchain streches it puts the timing out enough to makes the bike shake! I had already measured my camchain and it's just out of spec.

I've been thinking about this and with the evidence pointing to the timing train (I've measured everything else ten times and their all within spec) with enough slack in the chain and all the guides worn. That a wave motion could develop in the chain, sort of a resonance frequency happening. With the cams doing half the revs of the crank and the chain even less, that the wave of slack runs around the timing loop and only effects the timing every second or third or so fireing, setting up an out of balance motion that feeds back into it's selfe keeping the wave going.
Its a theory, I've seen this sort of thing happen in other systems.

Cheers..

Gosling1
17-05-12, 08:06 PM
you could be right mate - the only way to find out is when you have fitted all the new cam-train parts and fire the old girl up :)

arap183
18-05-12, 06:51 AM
The new cam chain finely turned up yesterday. Its postmarked the nineth, thats eight days ago, Aus post must still be using bullock wagons in QLD. Now I can start puting things back together. Any way I got it from Bunderburg Bike Wreckers who very helpfull and he said he has more.

http://i1109.photobucket.com/albums/h425/arap183/001-1.jpg

Here is a pic of the difference in length bettween the old and the new chains, around the loop the old one is nearly the equivelent of two links longer!

http://i1109.photobucket.com/albums/h425/arap183/002-2.jpg

Cheers..

gpz750turbo
18-05-12, 08:06 AM
Arrh, thought you may have got from Bundy bike wreckers...

Kerry Ellis is a well known local Kwaka guru who has been drag racing old Kawasaki's for years...he rebuilt my Mk11 engine.

This guy goes through most of the year shirtless, and what he doesn't know about old bikes is not worth knowing.

If you ever require a part urgently...give me a shout,I might be able to speed up the shipping progress. :top:

fnb9858
19-05-12, 04:38 PM
[/QUOTE] That a wave motion could develop in the chain, sort of a___________________ resonance frequency happening.
the wave of slack runs around the timing loop setting up an out of balance motion that feeds back into it's self
keeping the wave going.

[Mexican Wave] ..........Should it be called a Kwaka Wave?

900FOUR
20-05-12, 06:56 PM
Arrh, thought you may have got from Bundy bike wreckers...

Kerry Ellis is a well known local Kwaka guru who has been drag racing old Kawasaki's for years...he rebuilt my Mk11 engine.

This guy goes through most of the year shirtless, and what he doesn't know about old bikes is not worth knowing.:top:



Jeeezuz Davo, when I read local Kawa guru, shirtless, drag racer in Bundy, owner bike wreckers, I thought I had a matching pic, but no.

Here's ledgenary Palmyra Drag Strip king, Mackay Bike Wreckers owner and probably shirtless all year round, Kawa guru, Barry Irvine showing how it's done, at least he's sporting correct blood bucket and foot ware. No chance slipping orf the seat but. Bike was called Spirit of Mackay, wonder where it is nowdays.

Do you know him, lives on Sunshine coast nowdays, bet he could tell a few stories.

Maybe worlds first Zed 900 wheelstanding streaker??

http://i693.photobucket.com/albums/vv300/RGH900/CCF01052012_00005.jpg



Some nice Diamond Brown (baby p o o we called it, oh how things change) A4's of same era, July 1977.

http://i693.photobucket.com/albums/vv300/RGH900/CCF01052012_00006.jpg

gpz750turbo
20-05-12, 07:05 PM
Don't know the guy you speak of Hench...but great old photos just the same.....

arap183
21-05-12, 09:30 AM
Another possible source of the knocking noise. Backlash bettween the crank shaft and the oil pump gear, caused by the slack timeing chain puting the timing off. A similar sound can be produced by rocking the main drive in the gear box.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=HQmyVWtGH0I

Cheers..

arap183
30-05-12, 02:01 PM
Changed all the timeing train gear including the rubbers,measured everything ten times and everything is ok and within spec.
Had the motor in bits so I replaced the valve oil seals, honed the cylinders, new rings, new internal oil seals cleaned everything, very lightly laped the exaust valves.

The noise and vibration are still there, if not worse, farrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrk!

It can't be something bent because it all measured ok its an intermitant problem.

This is driving me mad.

RED ZED
30-05-12, 04:42 PM
Mate , personally I can offer no mechanical suggestions, only moral support. :s:

We can feel the pain ...... good luck. :banghead:

GarnZ1
30-05-12, 07:57 PM
Arap, You initially said it ran quite alright after warming up, was that the case this time? If it does run better after warm up
i'm starting to think of too low oil pressure and/ or a restriction to part of the camshaft oil gallery in the head.
After listening to that first video again, there is too much noise .... It must be something hitting some where.
I would drop the exhaust off and turn the engine over to see if any of the guides are moving with the valve stems. Same with the inlet side.
Next, I would go back to that alt rotor. I don't really like that wobble on the tapered end of the crankshaft.
Best of luck, as Red Zed says; we are feeling for you.
RegardZ.

Ps. did you change the head gasket? I have heard of a 900 gasket bumping the piston if not changed to a 1000 gasket if capacity has been increased!

Lone Star
31-05-12, 07:30 PM
... this is a great read!
Just like an Agathie Christy whodoneit!
It has multiple suspects!
It has multiple leads to the 'killer', all valid but not absolute proof!
There is a beautiful woman involved (the bike) and a poor hapless chappy caught in the middle of it all (arap)
And photos and video!
I love a good mystery...
It's obvious to me what the problem is ...
Your ex-girlfriend stuffed it up for you. Somehow.
It's always the ex-girlfriend that is to blame in the movies ....

Lone Star
31-05-12, 07:30 PM
Or if you are catholic ...
it was the butler.

Doctor Shifty
31-05-12, 09:10 PM
I want some of what Loney's having. :)

arap183
02-06-12, 10:11 AM
This is turning into a bit of a saga and its going to go a bit longer! We're moving next weekend so working on the bike is going to have to waite a while.
When I put the engine back together I used all Kawasaki parts and gaskets and a tourque wrench on every bolt. It hasnt been rebored, I gave cylinders a light hone with a 240 flex hone because I was fitting new rings.
When I had the head in bits I measured a couple of the valves and gave the guides a good riggle and pull and couldnt find any problems. Allthough I didn't check the valves for straightness as they all looked OK
and I was thinking I had found the problem in the timeing chain system. Everything looked very good without any signs of wear. The cam journal inserts were unmarked, no scoreing or marks on anything else.

The noise now seems louder and the shaking may be a bit worse like the worse case of preiginition ever. I can actualy feel a thump in the concrete! It appears to be comeing from the head which would indicate something to do with the valves or cam system as has been suggested.
I'm trying to think of signs and symtoms of different faults and how to identify them before giong through the tear down process again without a good idea of what the cause is.
My brain is starting to hurt!

If it's a valve guide riding up and down, wouldn't the oil turn black quickly, it's still clear!?
If it's a sticking valve, there wasn't any strike marks on the pistons, so its being closed by compression and the noise is the sound of the shim and bucket slaming into the cam? I imagine that would sound like what we are hearing, a hollow metalic knocking noise? What would the different symptoms of an exaust valve or a inlet valve sticking open be and how do I prove one or the other. I'll do a compression test and see if that shows anything. It may be a while though.

Cheers

fnb9858
02-06-12, 04:17 PM
the noise is the sound of the shim and bucket slaming into the cam? I imagine that would sound like what we are hearing, a hollow metalic knocking noise? What would the different symptoms of an exaust valve or a inlet valve sticking open be and how do I prove one or the other. I'll do a compression test and see if that shows anything. It may be a while though.

Cheers[/QUOTE] Hi arap183.........If you take all the spark plugs out and crank the engine over can you hear the knocking noise.
If you can then you take the cam cover off and locate the sticking valve. If you carn't hear it try turning each cylinder to TDC and
with a screwdriver between the cam and bucket depress each valve the same amount as the cam would and see if any stick when
you release them......Hope this helps.

arap183
04-06-12, 06:25 PM
Thanks fnb, it doesn't seem to do unless it been running for a minutes or so and I can't hear it just cranking it over. Something else has got me scratching my head though, why does a timing light work perfectly well when on number 1 or 2 plug leads and then on 3 or 4 play up and fire off and on eraticly when its the same coil as 1 or 2? Shouldn't it behave the same on the same coil on either plug? Or am I just loseing it?

fnb9858
05-06-12, 10:01 PM
Thanks fnb, it doesn't seem to do unless it been running for a minutes or so and I can't hear it just cranking it over. Something else has got me scratching my head though, why does a timing light work perfectly well when on number 1 or 2 plug leads and then on 3 or 4 play up and fire off and on eraticly when its the same coil as 1 or 2? Shouldn't it behave the same on the same coil on either plug? Or am I just loseing it?

Your right arap. 1 coil is triggered for spark on 1 and 4 the other is 2 and 3. Unscrew the spark leads 1 and 4 at the coil and swap them at the coil
If 1 plays up and 4 is good,then problem is identified, fit new leads.If no different then check for bad connection in wiring connectors from the pickup coils to the ic igniter and to the coils....... Hope this helps.

GarnZ1
11-06-12, 07:57 AM
Arap, I guess this is getting to you by now!
I would like you to do this exercise, if it is possible...
As shown earlier, the noise is quite clear. My aim is identify at what frequency is the noise relative to the engine revs.
That is.... is it at cam speed, chain speed, clutch cage speed or crank speed
We may be able to establish this a few ways....Remove points cover and and put some "white-out" on the tip of the points rotor
Run the bike, with the idle set as slow as possible.
Now visually check with your video amplified sound microphone. Is it at crankshaft speed?.
You will need to start it up without the cam cover on, for some other tests, which can be messy.
I was proposing to mark a section of chain about ten links long with white paint to check whether is is at chain speed.

Oh! its not a high lift cams hitting the cam cover is it?
Not one of the three bolts holding the cam sprocket to the camshaft, protruding?
Not the screw that holds the cam-chain guide in the barrels too long?
Good luck.... RegardZ.

fnb9858
13-06-12, 07:58 PM
Arap, I guess this is getting to you by now!
I would like you to do this exercise, if it is possible...
As shown earlier, the noise is quite clear. My aim is identify at what frequency is the noise relative to the engine revs.
That is.... is it at cam speed, chain speed, clutch cage speed or crank speed
We may be able to establish this a few ways
Now visually check with your video amplified sound microphone. Is it at crankshaft speed?.
Good luck.... RegardZ.

If you go back to the video with the mic and listen when the mic is passed near the spark plug you can hear a electrical interference when the spark plug fires at 1.26.It seems to match the frequency of the knocking. What do you think GarnZ1.

Ktm181
14-06-12, 12:22 PM
What a frustrating **** fight! I'd go right back to basics and have an experienced 2nd set of ears with you on this. Piss off the electronic ear as well, we used to use them a lot at work but found they are too sensitive. Get either a set of mechanics stepiscopes from a tool store, the ones with a long metal probe on the end OR a long flat blade screw driver and start listening at different spots (flat blade on engine section and ear on end of handle), you should be able to isolate roughly the specific area. Once you get a narrow area, do the same test,running it 4 seperate times with each plug lead off one at a time, it should let you know if is cylinder specific etc. I had a good listen, its a fairly loud noise, but not like any normal bigend or little end noise i ever heard, more like missing thrust washers or something assembled incorrectly etc. AT WHAT STAGE DID THIS NOISE BECOME APPARENT? was it after some sort of repair? Was it after some sort of modification? etc????????? Where are you located? AGAIN, electronic ears are too sensitive, can make noise seem a lot louder and can make it echo to different areas in an engine or chassis, for instance in cars you can actually hear the oil circulating in the sump, in chassis you can hear lots of noises that seem abnormal but are totally standard i.e. spring noise, piston rod in shocks sliding back and forth etc etc. Something else, DOES NOISE change at all when clutch pulled in? If you bought it with the noise in it have you chased up its history as far as repairs/mods etc?
DONT GIVE UP,
Kt

arap183
14-06-12, 10:39 PM
Thanks fellars, Im not giving up, I've been moving house and the bike has had to take a rest for a while.
I bought this bike brand new from Whitehouse Motorcycles in Albury,Wodonga in 1978. It ticked over 50,000ks coming back from the 40th in March. It was my daily ride for 10 years as well as many runs (some with a lot of other bikes and one with a lot of police, but thats another story) around southern N.S.W., A.C.T., Vic and a trip to Tasie. It went into storage for 20 years when I moved to Sydney in 1988. In about 80 or 81 maybe, I'm not shure, it got stolen and was out in the wilds for about a week I think ( I actualy found it my selfe, in the bush not far from home) and when I got it back there was very little damage and the engine was fine.
I think the noise has been there a long time but not as bad and I dont rember the vibration though (did it start after the bike was stolen? I don't know.) I had it shiped over to S.A. when I moved here in 08 and thats when I found that the output shaft bearing was stuffed. I replaced that without any problems. Before this the engine hasn't had a spanner to it, it's still got the original philips head casing bolts!
I think the noise is at cam shaft speed and I think I've got it narrowed down to a sticking inlet valve on number two.
This combined with some 34 year old electrical conections is causing the vibration ( I ran a wire directly from the battery to the ignition input and it ran a bit smother) Once Iv'e fixed the noise problem I'm going to do Gose's ignition relay mod to bypass the old electrics.
I rode it here from the old house, its about 4ks, running 98 octane with some Lucas Flashlube upper cylinder lubricant in the petrol to see if it stoped the noise. But alas it was there again at the next cold start.
So the bike sits and waits while I get my life back to some sort of normalty. Then build a workshop area and remove
the head and check every thing and hopefuly find a sticky valve!

To be continued...

arap183
22-07-12, 10:36 AM
Just ran the Zed without the alternator rotor and the knock is still there. So it's definitely not the alternator rotor. Wo is me, off comes the head again.

The worst part is, that its a beautiful sunny day and I can hear bikes heading up into the hills.
Damm!

GarnZ1
24-07-12, 08:30 AM
As Fnb suggests it may be the frequency of the sparking (or muliples of this) which could be the cam-shaft.
Although its messy with oil when engine running, I would lift the cam cover off and see if any of the cam caps are loose (stripped). You will see the bolt or bolts move if this is the problem.....Grasping at straws!
RegardZ.
PS. I've been reading about a BMW f650 that had a bad vibration, ended up being a muffler with the isolation rubbers worn!

GNITFARD
24-07-12, 06:23 PM
Once had a similar problem. Although it didnt seem worn I decided to change the cam chain as a last resort as I had a spare and had tried everything else without pulling down. Whilst replacing camshaft cover I broke a coil wire. Instead of repair I replaced them with a spare set and the noise disappeared which may relate to the previous electrical posts. Worth a try if you have a spare set.

arap183
24-07-12, 09:32 PM
Well the head is off and in bits. I was hopeing to find a slightly bent valve but they are all laser straight, the dial gauge does not move at all. I did try runing the engine with the cam cover off, that lasted about two seconds and there was oil from A to breckfast time.
The guides seem ok, rock solid and no signs of ever moving, a tiny bit of wobble in seven of them bettween the valves and the guides when the valve stem end is flush with the oil seal, with a little bit more in number four exhaust.

Now, could it be piston slap?? This was suggested by my nephew (who is an aprentice motor mechanic) a couple of months ago. With the head off and the pistons a TDC I can rock each piston back and forth with my hands ever so slightly and produce the slightest of noises. I had the pistons out last time and the looked and measured ok.

Does any one have any experience with piston slap? Is there any way to diagnose it?

Cheers

900FOUR
04-11-12, 03:34 PM
Arap, any more news on your mystery noise?

Thought you might be interested in this, a Germany Z1000A2 owner on another forum posted this, correct me if I,m wrong but same noise as yours-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uDdoHlzOd6g&feature=youtu.be

Good news he found the problem-

http://i693.photobucket.com/albums/vv300/RGH900/IMG_2142.jpg

http://i693.photobucket.com/albums/vv300/RGH900/IMG_2167.jpg

http://i693.photobucket.com/albums/vv300/RGH900/IMG_2170.jpg

It also had a broken clutch basket spring which is rather strange on a low milage bike- 62,000klm's

http://i693.photobucket.com/albums/vv300/RGH900/IMG_2168.jpg

His Engrish not the best but he doesn't at this stage know the cause, he and his buddies are Zed gurus in Germany so will post any further developments, even if he did drop it I doubt the crank would push side ways, me thinks the crank tryed to spin some how on the locating dowels as damage is in that direction not side ways. Ondos CBX 1000 6's can bend a crank if dropped on it's side but never seen nore heard this to a Zed, can't wait for answer.

HIS OWN WORDS---

No, i dont now, i have had no crash.

This is a typical damage, when you have a crash on the left side.
Than the street push the rotor/cran to the right side.

I hope you can understand my english!

arap183
22-11-12, 10:27 AM
Sorry for not replying sooner fellars, Iv'e been very busy the last couple of months. Wow 900 that is a very a similar noise, I haven't seen any damage like that in my engine. Although I did find a broken clutch compression spring a while back. Weird??
Re the noise I'm slowing ruleing things out through the process of elimination. I can get the engine to make a similar noise when turning it over by hand and it seems to be comeing from the starter clutch area. There is a lot of noise behind the clutch basket, when its runing and it becomes much quieter with the clutch pulled in. There may be a bearing on the way out in there.
But here is one that has got my head hurting. When I use a timing light, 1&4 are firing (timing light flashing) at what seems to be half the rate of 2&3. Half the rate of the engine revs. Iv'e got a Dyna S ignition installed with dyna coils. The timing light is powered by a seperate battery so it should'nt be interfearance. I can't understand how this can happen, if it realy is it may explain the excessive vibration the engine seems to have. I can't figure out how its possible, unless the electronics in 1&4 module are some how faulty. Ive always had a feeling that something odd is going on with the timing/ignition system. The reason I was fiddling was Im thinking of doing the relay for the coils mod. Gnitfard might be on the right track. But this firing difference has got me stuffed. Any ideas?
Cheers..

GarnZ1
22-11-12, 07:28 PM
Arap, I found an interesting problem the other day, that may be applicable. I had the clutch basket spinning in its large caged rollers. There was a definite lumpiness in the bearing, on examination of the hard ground surface the rollers were running in. I could find no evidence of a flat or defect that would cause the noise. Strange!
RegardZ.

GNITFARD
25-11-12, 05:55 PM
Just an update on the coil replacement, have done about 600k's since and noise has not returned. Also the camchain I had replaced was hardly worn so in my case it was definitely to do with the ignition. I would never have guessed this (more ass than class) as it sounded like it was coming from the bottom end.

Regards

fnb9858
26-11-12, 07:05 PM
[QUOTE=arap183
But here is one that has got my head hurting. When I use a timing light, 1&4 are firing (timing light flashing) at what seems to be half the rate of 2&3. Half the rate of the engine revs. Iv'e got a Dyna S ignition installed with dyna coils. The timing light is powered by a seperate battery so it should'nt be interfearance. I can't understand how this can happen, if it realy is it may explain the excessive vibration the engine seems to have. I can't figure out how its possible, unless the electronics in 1&4 module are some how faulty. Ive always had a feeling that something odd is going on with the timing/ignition system. The reason I was fiddling was Im thinking of doing the relay for the coils mod. Gnitfard might be on the right track. But this firing difference has got me stuffed. Any ideas?
Cheers..[/QUOTE]

Arap Here is something to try. Get another spark plug and plug it into number 2 or 3
And ground it to the engine. Take off the pickup cover and with the ignition on turn the engine by hand. Take note of when the plug fires in relation to the pickup coils. It should only spark when one pickup coil lines up. Repeat with number 1 or 4 which should spark when the other pickup coil lines up. If you find that 2 and 3 spark on both pickups then check the wiring from the pickup coils to the ic igniter looking for a short between the pickups that will double the spark signal to 2 and 3 plugs…..
Also……..Make sure that the magnets behind the pickups are not broken or cracked and are in the right way[north south polarity]……..They can be put on both ways but one way will give you a stronger spark signal than the other way. Test by feeling the magnetic field strength with the tip of a screwdriver held a 1or 2mm away from the pick up.
Hope this helps

900FOUR
29-11-12, 08:46 PM
Arap one thing to check if it could be electrical is your kill switch, these play havok, l've being caught out twice with the bakerlite cracked/shattered, the housing that holds the dimple plate, 3 springs and ball bearing, only 20 minute job, worth checking. Kill switch still worked but caused lottsa stress to me.

GarnZ1
01-12-12, 08:15 AM
Not wanting to confuse the issue.... Does the engine still quieten down after running for some minutes.
I noticed you said that the noise was worse after your complete pull down (overhaul).
When the oil pump is first run after a strip down the often get a small air lock that doesn't get enough oil up in the to cams.
I have often noticed the noise of cams slapping the shim bucket, when engine first started after an overhaul sounds like a bag of bolts in the head!
I know you get oil up there, ref your statement you had oil from A to breakfast, after checking engine with cam cover off!
RegardZ .
PS. Worth while checking out that electrical firing problem!

pps.Does the noise get quieter after warming the engine and restating, say 10 min later?
I'm trying to find out if the noise is from lack of oil to the victim noise.

arap183
19-12-12, 08:08 AM
Hi fellars. Ive done the ignition relay mod. It does make a significant difference to the power of the spark. Also figured out the strange timing light behaviour. I think I answered this question in an earlier post ( getting old, brain fade setting in) its something to do with the two plugs being wired in series on each coil. The timing light works perfectly on number one and number two, its on three and four where the currunt is runing in the oposite direction where it plays up.
The knocking noise goes away when the engine warms up and doesn't return untill the next cold start. With the other noise coming from behind the clutch basket, Im starting to think the two are related and that the knocking noise is one or more of the bearings in the gear box. It will have to waite untill winter maintainance time and I get in there and have a good look around.
Cheers

GarnZ1
09-01-13, 06:38 PM
Arap, I feel as so I need to report any unusual noise to help you solve this problem of yours....

Yesterday, I was fitting a head to an engine, in particular the two cam chain idler sprockets....
I had them sitting in the barrels ready to fit the head gaskets and end dowels.
I gave them a spin. Would you believe one of them made a "clicking" noise.
Evidently, I had used a socket headed Allen bolt to lock the cam-chain guide down. The head of this bolt/screw was protruding just sufficient enough to rub on the teeth of the front idler sprocket. I immediately thought of the unknown noise which has had you concerned for some time.

Worth a check!
RegardZ ~ Garn

Zelephant
15-01-13, 06:58 PM
Hey Arap and everyone, once upon a time in never never land it was a knock knock knock or was it a knock knock knock knock but now its a clink clink clink, or is it a clink clink clink clink ?????????, so without going over 50 million pages....what the fluck was it, its near my bed time and i gotta know....nothing worse than a noise in you mota...hope ya get your knocieclinks worked out. Zelephant..cheers.

Zelephant
23-01-13, 06:22 PM
two bobs worth...What about con rods or gudgeon pins...measure both on all 4...it only takes a poofteenth of a poofteenth for any small noise to travel and exasperate in another area, hollow like a combustion chamber or top top end to to trick the unwary to think it actually coming from up there.????. cheers.

900FOUR
21-04-13, 08:24 AM
Arap have a read here, this sounds like your noise.

http://www.z1ownersclub.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=25124

arap183
22-04-13, 02:51 PM
Hey 900, it does read very similar. Doesn't look as though they have found the problem.
I'm in the same boat so to speak.
Ive had the motor apart twice and the noise is still there every now and then.
The latest consensus is that its a gear box bearing.
Every thing that is directly connected to the crankshaft has been measured numerous times and everything is within spec.
So it seems its a matter of me finding the will to split the crankcase for the forth time looking for a problem that may not be identifiable when the motor is in bits.
If this rain keeps up now might be the time.
Cheers A

900FOUR
22-04-13, 08:18 PM
Hey 900, it does read very similar. Doesn't look as though they have found the problem.
Cheers A

What about a loose head locating dowell as paul doran's fix?

I'd leave it, might go away or develop which will be easier to pin point.

sproket
23-04-13, 05:17 PM
Hi everyone
I have been reading this thread with a lot of intrest,knowing the grief arap has been going thru
I used to work for a Suzuki Kawsaki dealer in the 80`s and we did a lot of work for the Army, they had Suzuki road and trail bikes at the time,one day they show up in a gigantic truck with 5 bikes all to have the big ends replaced, starting the first one there awas a loud banging noise coming from the engine, i pulled the head and cylinder off and sure enough there was nothing wrong???????
Also checked the clutch and alternator , everything was perfect, mind you these bikes were very low kilometers
On re assembly i noticed there was an excessive amount of end float on the camshafts, this is set at the factory when they machine the camshaft and cylinder head and this definately made a noise when pushing the cam left to right, convinced i was onto something i re assembled the the cam cover without the inlet and exhaust 1/2 moon rubbers which sit on the end of the head, i started the bike up and sure enough the noise was there, i then put a screwdriver into the hole while the engine was running and pushed the camshaft across, would you believe the noise disappeared.
I just checked my z1000 and sure enough there seems to be excessive end float on the camshaft,even though the cam blocks have a boss to cater for this and take up the slack.
Arap , give this a try, as you seem to have done everything else

sproket

GarnZ1
23-04-13, 05:34 PM
Sproket, I've noticed a few engines with excessive end float in the cam-shaft(s).
I've seen some that have a series of punch marks around the alloy bearing surfaces that take this end thrust.
What is the consensus of opinion, as to what is acceptable end float for these camshafts?
How can one get rid of this end float, other than that punching method?

900Four, I took that dowel noise of Paul Doran's to be the dowel rattling in the combustion chamber!
Surely, a dowel would be tight in one of the surfaces
RegardZ

sproket
23-04-13, 05:57 PM
Garnz, this is not easy to fix,
My Laverda has a 1/2 moon clip which sits in the bearing block locating into the cam, i will take a picture next time i have it apart
I am hoping this is arap`s problem, the Suzuki where i found the problem was a twin 2 valver so everytime the valve was opened the camshaft was pushed against the cylinder head, then it would be slammed against the opposite side when the other valve was opened and believe me it did sound like a Big end.
To fix a z900 head i will have to look under the bearing blocks and see if there is room to do some engineering
The punch marks you have seen is someone trying to quieten the engine, i have tried this and it doesn`t work , usually because the end float is excessive, i have a good mate who owns an engineering shop FORMULA TOOLING in Rowville he is a bike nut as well and loves a challenge (like me)i will take a head out to him next week and let him have a look
Have a look at his web site, the machinery is incredible

sproket

sproket
24-04-13, 04:02 PM
hI
also forgot to mention this problem only seems to be at idle or very low rpm, i think as the revs increase the camshaft is pulled straight by the cam chain this does not allow the camshaft to move from left to right
I wonder if a new cam chain would solve the problem???????
Garnz
I missed one of your questions yesterday, "how much end float"
At a guess i would say these engines would not need very much,i would measure this cold then measure when hot and see what expansion has happened
sproket

GarnZ1
24-04-13, 05:15 PM
Thanks Sproket, I think Arap should check your theory out. I waded back thru the pages and found his problem is at idle and as it warms up!
I agree that the cam chain would tend to centre the camshaft and decrease the noise as revs increase.
How about two special half-moon rubbers with a 6mm brass screw & lock nut tapped into the rubber! Adjust end-float as you go.
Arap, it's worth a look, before another overhaul!
RegardZ

sproket
24-04-13, 06:05 PM
Garnz
I just removed the left hand cam block of my z1ooo at work, the camshaft has 2 x bosses built in,(i will post some pics when i find my camera)
The inlet and the exhaust cam blocks definately have a boss there to cater for end float,this bike has only done 12,000 miles and it has 1/2 mm of end float now,you can see wear on the cam block enough to catch your finger nail on, i dont have the correct tools to measure this accurately just now.
I am interested to see if arap is willing to try my theory and hopefully solve the problem
If you push the camshaft left to right, while the engine is stationary you will hear a bang!!!!!

sproket

arap183
24-04-13, 07:22 PM
Hi Garnz and Sprocket, when I red Sprockets post from yesterday this morning I almost ran to the bike and started pulling the cam cover off.
Once I had the cover off I tried to move the cam shafts left and right across the engine and also up and down, solid as, no movement in any direction even while turning the engine over to get the least amount of pressure from the valve springs.
By end float do you mean lateral movement across the engine?
I started the engine with the end plugs out as suggested and pushed each cam from both sides hard enough to move the bike. I couldn't feel any movement and the noise didn't appear.
It did give about three knocks while I wasn't pushing the cams and it sounded like they came from the clutch area.
So I let it cool down all day and I just went through the procedure again, not one knock at any time.
When you talk about the "cam blocks" do you mean the journal bearings that the cams run in.
1\2 mm of movement in any direction seems about 1/2 mm too much to me
I can't get any movement in any direction other than rotation out of my cams.
I was really hopin that this was the problem and I could put this to rest.
Ill try again tomorrow but I don't think this is it.
Thanks for the input. Sooner or later some one is going to know what it is.
Cheers.. A

sproket
26-04-13, 05:09 PM
I have been in the shed doing some investigation into this,the left hand cam blocks (inlet and exhaust) sitting on the bike have been machined to locate the cams.
I suggest you remove the inlet cam block( left side) and look on the inside of the cam block you will see the wear marks here where the cam has been rubbing against it, take the dowles out of the cam block and re position the cam block on top of the cam with out the bolts in and push the cam block left to right that is how much end float the cam has, try and measure this if you can.
Re bolt the inlet cam block back to the cylinder head and do the same with the exhaust
i will try and post some pictures shortly

sproket

sproket
26-04-13, 06:19 PM
21211

21212

21213

21214

21215

arap183
28-04-13, 12:08 PM
I tried once more to produce the knocking noise by pushing the cams side to side without any movement or noise resulting.
The next day before I put it back together I measured the side ways clearance ( end float ) as suggested.
The exhaust measures about 0.35mm and the inlet about 0.30m That gives about 0.15mm clearance on each side of the boss for each cam.
This doesn't seem to be excessive to me, though I have never seen or heard what the clearance is supposed to be. It's much less than the 1.2mm Sprocket reported.
It's back together now and idles and runs beautifully except for that f*%king knock every now and then.
Cheers..A

sproket
28-04-13, 03:52 PM
Hi,
i haven`t been able to post since i sent the pictures, arap that is half a mm not 1 to 2 mm
You can see from the pictures the wear on the cam block, at least Kawasaki have built this into the engine as most others haven`t, Garnz knows the noise i am talking about.
A kawasaki with lots of Km`s will have this noise you can hear it at idle
Sorry arap i haven`t solved your problem, i thought i was onto it

sproket

arap183
28-04-13, 06:26 PM
No worries Sprocket, I thought you were on to it as well. Each thing we eliminate gets us closer to the cause.
Sooner or later we will get it.

Cheers..A

900FOUR
28-04-13, 10:15 PM
No worries Sprocket, I thought you were on to it as well. Each thing we eliminate gets us closer to the cause.
Sooner or later we will get it.

Cheers..A

arap, the UK Moaners Club are still going on about cam end float, see garyd posting, worth another try?

http://www.z1ownersclub.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=25124

By the way, what type engine oil you using?

arap183
29-04-13, 07:38 AM
Castrol GTX 20/50 since day one.

njwmct
10-05-13, 04:30 PM
Arap, Just found your thread & can confirm that my 1979 Z1000 MK11 is making the same noise.
Noise comes at idle from cold & goes away once the engine is up to temp.
Looking at your experience it's a bit of a worry as your extensive work/investigation hasn't revealed the source of the problem - it must be really frustrating!
If I discover anything at my end that might help then I'll let you know.
Meanwhile I'll keep an eye out for your updates.
Good Luck!

arap183
11-05-13, 07:13 AM
Thanks Nick, I'm just about convinced that the noise is caused by camshaft end float / thrust as suggested by Sprocket a few posts earlier. Now its just a matter of proving it and then finding a solution.
I'm gathering info from the net and forming a few ideas myself. I'll definitely let everyone know when I solve this one.

Cheers.. A

arap183
16-05-13, 10:07 PM
Yip Yip Yip Yipeeeee Yarhoo Yeeeehaarrrrr! Problem solved, no more knock knock knock. And the hero is.......................................................
............................ Sprocket, well done mate, it was definitely cam end float/thrust.

After Sprocket setting me on the right path and a clue from Garnz, re what type of oil I was using. I did a fair bit of research and decided to change the oil I've been using to an oil with added or full zinc.
I didn't want to use normal oil and add so called zinc replacement additives. Ive settled on this http://www.penriteoil.com.au/products.php?id_categ=7&id_products=269 and the spec sheet is here http://www.penriteoil.com.au/pis_pdfs/MC4ST%2015W50%20PREMIUM%20MINERAL%20FOUR%20STROKE%20MOTORCYCLE%20OIL%20AUG%202012.pdf

After I changed the oil the Knock Knock was reduced to a Clack Clack noise and it was more intermittent and disappeared earlier. I kept thinking and scratching my head, why, why has my bike got cam end float while much older or higher mileage engines don't? I decided to check the valve clearance, though I knew they were all around the 0.13mm mark. All Ok. Checked the Kawasaki Z1000A1 work shop manual for clues. In the supplement for the A2 and D1 (my bike is a D1) it doesn't mention any difference from the A1 for the valve clearance but in the section for the A3 and D2 it says set the clearance at 0.1mm to 0.15mm. Years ago I was told by a kawasaki mechanic to set the valve clearance to the wider range "as all the Z1000s are the same" and also the mantra "its better to be too wide than too close" I wonder, could the wide valve clearance be the cause of the excessive end float / thrust movement. Some more searching and I found this http://www.wgcarbs.com//index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=Itemid=88 See the note under Tech Specifications.

So I reset the valve clearance to between 0.05mm and 0.10mm and ...... You guessed it, the knock knock is gone and the engine is as quiet as ever, no clicks no knocks no bangs, just purrrr. I've started it three times over three days from dead cold and not one knock!

I have a bit of a theory that started to develop before I reset the valves to the narrower specified clearance. That is that if the clearance is too wide the camshaft loses contact with the valve shims as it rotates at low revs (by contact I mean a suction film of oil) and as one lobe comes into contact with a valve shim and under pressure while the other lobes are out of "contact" for a split second, the camshaft is knocked sideways. Its just a theory but it seems to fit.

Thanks to everyone for their input into this. I knew we would solve it sooner or later.

Cheers and quiet motoring.
A

Zelephant
17-05-13, 02:38 PM
Been watching this 4 ages and what a great outcome... its something that i will remember...that was better than daze of our lves

RED ZED
17-05-13, 05:26 PM
Onya Cobberrr !

We knew you could do it , ( took ya fur kin long enough ), nah just kidding.
I think lots of us have learnt heaps from your problem and your sense of perseverance in solving it.

Now get out on a long ride this weekend , why ? , because you can.

sproket
17-05-13, 05:31 PM
Arap,great news
I knew i was onto something, i just had to convince other people it was camshaft end float
I have scoured other forums and came across another one,this guy fitted some performance camshafts, when he started the bike he had a horrible clanging noise,he could not work out what the problem was,put the standard cams back in and no noise!!!!!!!!!!!
I bet it was camshaft end float
I have looked everywhere and there is no spec's for camshaft end float, i am still working on a fix with my engineering shop, will post something when we have come up with a solution

sproket

Ktm181
17-05-13, 08:33 PM
CONGRATULATIONS on finding a fix, i couldnt for the life of me imagine you getting that amount of noise from camshaft end float, but you learn something every day!
Now Penrite have a lot of tech info to offer, for intance the oil you have used is also marketed as HPRGAS 10 in their car range, same oil but in a 5 litre bottle and can be bought at Supercheap Auto for $30 odd dollars a bottle when they have their sales, i have been using it for last 10 years or so, you will also find a lot of their oils have 1200ppm zdp/zinc levels, just great for older engines, you can find a list in the motorcycle section listing ALL their recommended motor cycle friendly oils and a list of zinc levels for all their oils in their tech section. I have run hpr10 gas in= Tiger 800, Zrx1200, 1098 Ducati and a HOnda Fireblade, 30k in the Blade and Zrx each on their oil no probs at all, 25k in the Ducati no probs, the Tiger is only newish so far. Hprgas 10 in the 900 so far 5000 miles, no probs except dud valve seals!

Also interesting is what WG has to say on valve clearances as low as 2 thou (.05mm), bit tight for a regularly "ridden" modified one but more than ok for one that is stock cammed and not ridden to crazily, mine runs 4 thou inlet and exhaust and is quiet as a mouse, i'll check the end float next time i do the valves for sure though.

Cheers,
Kt

robbyg
17-05-13, 08:44 PM
Great news mate, been watching this post for ages, had similar issues with my bike since a recent rebuild, stripped down to find nothing wrong, reassembled with a different set of carbs, and bingo no more noise, not saying the carbs where the problem, I have a suspicion mine maybe had a similar issue. Will get in contact with me engine builder and ask what clearances it was set at this time. Anyway mate we had the same outcome in the end and how good does it feel, cheers rob

arap183
20-05-13, 10:02 AM
Thanks Fellars, it's a good feeling to start the bike and it just ticks over so quietly that you can almost hear the oil sloshing around. It just goes to show that Mr Kawasaki knows best, and when things aren't going right to go back to basics and set everything to factory specs.
A lesson I wont forget.
I should have worked it out earlier as I'm always telling people to keep things standard as Kawasaki spent thousands of dollars and hours getting these engines to run right.
Cheers
A.